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WinMLS 2000 Forum

This forum has been retired and will no longer be monitored.
You can find our new forum at www.winmls.com/board.


Subject Some basic questions

Date Mon Jul 22 2002 14:44

Author Jon Longtin (jlongtin@mesoscribe.com)

Ok, I'll bite.

I have the personal version of WinMLS, ver. 10b, and am using it to set up a small music practice room in my basement. I have a lot of questions, comments, and suggestions, but I'll start simple:

As an initial test, I would like to measure the distance between the microphone and loudspeaker. I noticed that the 'Levels' display has an option for 'Initial Time Delay'. My results, however, don't seem to agree. I have used both the 'synched' setting and the 'use loop back' during the measurements.

I have a SoundBlaster Live! card. The measured sample delay when connecting outputs to inputs is 18 samples (at 48000 kHz). The mic-speaker distance is about 0.5 m (20 inches), but I cannot seem to get a reasonable initial delay time (it should be about (0.5 m)/(344 m/s) = 1.45 ms). I am getting values of 0.23 ms. Also, if I change the sound card sample delay from 18 to, say, 40 or 60, the initial time delay increases accordingly, which is confusing, becuase I thought that the loop back and/or synched modes were able to compensate for the sound card delay,and hence shouldn't affect the measurement.

Any suggestions or thoughts?

Thanks folks. Looking forward to a lot of lively discussion here.

-Jon Longtin

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     Subject Loudspeaker-Mic distance

Date Thu Jul 25 2002 10:15

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

File: How to measure distance loudspeaker-microphone.doc

Thank you for your interesting question! Note that you may all post attachments if you want to share figures, setup-files or measurements, but please restrict the size. In this case, it would be good if you could post the measurement file in the default .wmb format.

Measuring the distance between the speaker and microphone requires some special settings, dependent on the sound card. As default settings in WinMLS, it is not measured (except for the recommended sound cards). But you can obtain sample-accurate results using WinMLS with any sound card. See the attached file on how to do this, comments are welcome. This is an important issue e.g. for installing surround setups.

Please note that the algorithm for detecting the initial time delay in the Levels plot type will be improved in the next beta.

-Lars Morset

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         Subject phase corrected by distance from speaker

Date Tue May 13 2003 15:26

Author Rick Brehm (brehm@mindless.com)

Once the correct distance is found, then should that value be used to correct the phase response measurement?

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             Subject Re: phase corrected by distance from sp

Date Wed Jun 11 2003 13:08

Author Kjell Olav Aalmo (koaa@online.no)

Sorry, didn't see this before.
The answer to your question is yes.

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Subject Sound card calibration

Date Fri Aug 16 2002 23:34

Author Simon Carlsen (sicarlse@eunet.no)

I have experienced trouble calibrating my sound card. The card I am using, Echo MIA, is not supported by the WinMLS mixer. Therefore I have to use the mixer that comes along with the sound card. Should I measure the RMS voltage on the output with maximum ouput level on the mixer? This value is above 3.5 volts and leads to a very high value for "sound card
conversion factor". Next when I connect the loopback for measuring the soundcards response, I get an error message saying that the level is too high.

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     Subject Sound Card Calibration

Date Wed Aug 21 2002 00:10

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

When you are doing absolute input calibration and the WinMLS mixer IS used and is relatively calibrated (the levels of the mixer is known), the mixer can have any level that does not cause clipping during the calibration procedure. If you get overload/clipping, reduce the mixer input or output level.
If the WinMLS mixer IS NOT used or relatively calibrated, the absolute calibration can only be done for the current level. If the current level is clipping, you have to reduce it in Measurement->Advanced Settings... by setting the 'Calibration pre-D/A ampl [dB FS]' to a number less than zero.

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Subject Setting the Sound Device and Output Line

Date Mon Sep 16 2002 09:04

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

File: Setting the Sound Device and Output Line.doc

See the attached document for an short introduction on how to set up your sound card.

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Subject WinMLS and RME HDSP Digiface

Date Thu Sep 19 2002 10:30

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

I am running WinMLS alternately on my DAW and my notebook.
No problems on the DAW with Win98SE, RME Hammerfall - but in the notebook (Toshiba Satellite, WinXP Home) I am using the RME HDSP Digiface - a very good and reliable audio/midi interface which has not caused any problems so far.
With WinMLS I am getting strange results when trying to calibrate the system using loop cables.
Sometimes the impulse response is at the end of the time window (using 14 bit MLS approx at 350 ms) and sometimes I get a delay of 0 samples which also is not correct.
The results are not always the same - sometimes the system outputs reasonable results and then again these strange values as stated above.
I am using the standard setups "MasterSetup" and "PostprocSetup" as supplied with the software.
Sampling rate 44.1 or 48 kHz.
BTW, no problems when using the Toshiba WDM driver for the built-in audio interface.

Any help appreciated.

Boris Balin

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     Subject Please attach a measurement

Date Thu Sep 19 2002 10:31

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

Dear Mr Balin,
thanks for the interesting report.

>(using 14 bit MLS approx at 350 ms)

You mean sequence order 14, which is 2^14 samples and gives approx 350 ms when the sampling frequency is 48 kHz.

>and sometimes I get a delay of 0 samples which also is not >correct.
> The results are not always the same - sometimes the system > outputs reasonable results and then again these strange
> values as stated above.

We have not tried the RME HDSP Digiface, but the results you report are very strange. You need to attach a measurement for me to evaluate this.

> I am using the standard setups "MasterSetup"
> and "PostprocSetup" as supplied with the software.

And you did not do ANY changes? Please note that WinMLS saves all your changes in a temporary setup "temp.wms", found under the folder "\SetupsMeasurement\Temp". If you could attach this file it would also help me detecting the problem.

> BTW, no problems when using the Toshiba WDM driver for the > built-in audio interface.

Good!

Best,
Lars

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         Subject Measurement file RME Digiface

Date Fri Sep 20 2002 08:54

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

File: Temp.wms

Hi Lars,
enclosed you will find the temp.wms file.
I hope you can find an explanation for the strange results.
If you want to get in contact with RME I would suggest Matthias Carstens, one of the geniuses behind RME
mailto:MatthiasCarstens@t-online.de
RME boards are famous for their sync alignment - maybe that's a point to look at in conjunction with WinXP.

Thanks again for your help.

Boris Balin

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             Subject Measurement data and additiona tests

Date Fri Sep 20 2002 17:05

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

File: RME-Digiface.zip

Hi Lars,
enclosed you will find several wmb files related to my tests of teday.
My setup : Looped Soundcard (both channels), 44.1 kHz
Mode "Only if synched" and "Detect start" will give
31, 41 and 50 samples delay (using 13,14 and 15 bit MLS signals). These values are too low.
Mode "Loopback with/without endcheck" will give :
a) 13 bit MLS : IR at 0 and 8190 samples (wrap around ?)
b) 14 bit MLS : IR at 0 and 16382 samples alternating with an IR at 14337 samples (changes every other measurement !)
c) 15 bit MLS : IR at 0 and 32766 samples alternating with an IR at 30721 samples (changes every other measurement !)

Mode "Soundcard is synched, offset=0" will give 126 samples stable delay (realistic value).
So this should be a good platform for working, BUT :
When I change mode from "Loopback" to "Synched" after having the IR at 0+16382, the "Synched" mode gives false results, i.e. IR at 14459 samples.
If I tell you that the buffer size of the RME card is set to 2048, you may start interesting computations.
The effect is : I think that I know how to avoid the problems, but there seems to be a problem somewhere in the driver communication between WinMLS and RME.

Best regards

Boris Balin

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                 Subject My answer

Date Fri Sep 20 2002 23:18

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

File: RME_LoopbackProblem.jpg

> enclosed you will find several wmb files related to my
> tests of teday.

Dear Boris, thanks for the nice quality measurements! The problem is the shifting of the impulse response. I'll try to help you.

>My setup : Looped Soundcard (both channels), 44.1 kHz
>Mode "Only if synched" and "Detect start" will give
>31, 41 and 50 samples delay (using 13,14 and 15 bit MLS
>signals). These values are too low.

WinMLS detects the start of the impulse response. If you increase the length of the measurement time (by using a higher MLS order) the noise floor is lower and the detection will be better which means that you will detect a longer delay.

>Mode "Loopback with/without endcheck" will give :
>a) 13 bit MLS : IR at 0 and 8190 samples (wrap around ?)
>b) 14 bit MLS : IR at 0 and 16382 samples alternating with
>an IR at 14337 samples (changes every other measurement !)
>c) 15 bit MLS : IR at 0 and 32766 samples alternating with
>an IR at 30721 samples (changes every other measurement !)

This is very strange. I found one error, see the attached picture. The file "Loop_endcheck_14337.wmb" has a much higher noise floor than "Loop_endcheck_16382.wmb", this is probably caused by the 2048 samples time shift. Did you use the mode "Use loopback with end-check" in Sound Card Settings? If yes, then WinMLS should give you an error message since there has been a gap in the measurement. But it will NOT detect the gap if it is exactly the same in record as in playback. Do you understand? Can this be the reason?

> Mode "Soundcard is synched, offset=0" will give 126 samples
> stable delay (realistic value).

Zoom in on the first 200 samples of the impulse response and set the vertical axis to "dB". Then you will see that the first 70 samples is only noise. If you have set the offset to "0", I would set it to "-70" to get rid of the noise in the beginning. This is of course not important for most types of measurements, also if you use the "Measurement System Correction" feature this will be corrected for.

This "sound card" works different than all the sound cards we have tested, all the other cards need an offset of 20-150 samples. Is this result always stable?

> So this should be a good platform for working, BUT :
> When I change mode from "Loopback" to "Synched" after
> having the IR at 0+16382, the "Synched" mode gives false
> results, i.e. IR at 14459 samples.

So it is not stable?

> If I tell you that the buffer size of the RME card is set
> to 2048, you may start interesting computations.
> The effect is : I think that I know how to avoid the
> problems,

Please let us know how. Do you mean setting the "Include initial time delay in meas." mode to "Yes, my sound card is synched" and setting the "Sound Card Delay [Samples]" to 0?

> but there seems to be a problem somewhere in the
> driver communication between WinMLS and RME.

I agree, if you know the RME guys I would appreciate if you could contact them about this.

I hope the answer was of some help.

Best,
Lars

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                     Subject Further testing

Date Mon Sep 23 2002 08:20

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

>Mode "Loopback with/without endcheck" will give :
>a) 13 bit MLS : IR split (one half at 0 and at 8190 samples)
>b) 14 bit MLS : IR split (0 and 16382 samples) alternating
> with an IR at 14337 samples (changes every other measurement !)
>c) 15 bit MLS : IR split (0 and 32766 samples) alternating
> with an IR at 30721 samples (changes every other measurement !)

> WinMLS should give you an error message since there has
> been a gap in the measurement. But it will NOT detect the
> gap if it is exactly the same in record as in playback. Do
> you understand? Can this be the reason?
I got an error message every second measurement. In order to avoid it I switched to "Advanced loopback signal". The error message disappeared but the results look like above.

New remarks :
After power-on and launching of WinMLS the impulse response sometimes is shifted - after reinserting the PC Card things are o.k. again.
A stable setup is : Mode "Soundcard is synched", Delay :0...120 samples.
I prefer to align to the delay of the soundcard (126 samples in my case) as close as possible in order to get precise distance values. Are there any pitfalls in this approach ?

Many thanks for your help.

Best regards
Boris Balin

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                         Subject Measurement System Correction

Date Mon Sep 23 2002 19:29

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

[Boris Balin] I got an error message every second measurement. In order to avoid it I switched to "Advanced loopback signal". The error message disappeared but the results look like above.
[Lars Morset] This makes things more clear. The error message was given because there WAS an error, as we could see from the measurement. The "Advanced loopback signal" should also give this message. But when you measure using "Advanced loopback signal", overload is not detected. I suspect that the signal was overloaded.

[Boris Balin] I prefer to align to the delay of the soundcard (126 samples in my case) as close as possible in order to get precise distance values. Are there any pitfalls in this approach ?

[Lars Morset] Does this mean that the maximum value is at the first sample (sample zero)? This will remove the pre-ringing that all sound cards has, and the result will be wrong (e.g. magnitude frequency response). Instead you should use the "Measurement System Correction" feature which will give you the exact impulse response of the system you are measuring, including the time delay (if using this feature, a loop-back measurement of the sound card will give a one-sample long peak at sample zero and around -100 dB noise floor for the other samples, also called a Dirac function).

I hope this was of some help.

Best,
Lars

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                             Subject Loopback error

Date Tue Sep 24 2002 08:22

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

Lars Morset] This makes things more clear. The error message was given because there WAS an error, as we could see from the measurement. The "Advanced loopback signal" should also give this message. But when you measure using "Advanced loopback signal", overload is not detected. I suspect that the signal was overloaded.
[Boris Balin] I doublechecked this - when I increase the level of the loopback signal the software detects the overload and display an error message.
I am quite sure that there was no overload.
The fact that the error appears every second measurement also points to a different cause.
Maybe some kind of buffer misalignment between software and audio card could lead to such a behaviour.

[Lars Morset] Does this mean that the maximum value is at the first sample (sample zero)? This will remove the pre-ringing that all sound cards has, and the result will be wrong (e.g. magnitude frequency response).
[Boris Balin] I see your point. As loopback measurements are not usable for me currently I will probably revert to the setting "Detect start" and adapt to the "wrong" distance values I am getting.

Many thanks for your help.

Best regards
Boris Balin

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                                 Subject Loop-back and latency

Date Fri Sep 27 2002 22:01

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

[Boris Balin] I doublechecked this - when I increase the level of the loopback signal the software detects the overload and display an error message.
I am quite sure that there was no overload.
The fact that the error appears every second measurement also points to a different cause.
Maybe some kind of buffer misalignment between software and audio card could lead to such a behaviour.
[Lars Morset] You wrote that if you did NOT use the advanced loop-back signal, you got the error message on every second measurement. If this is the case, this is likely to be because there IS an error. I have some experience with such type of measurements and from your example I see that there is an error with the measurements that are not synchronized. Is it possible to increase the latency value of the hardware?

Best,
Lars

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                                     Subject Errors with loopback connected

Date Sun Sep 29 2002 14:19

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

Lars,
maybe I have not been precise enough :
The error message appearing every second try is WITH loopback connected and end-check. Other settings : 44k1, 14 bit MLS.

Yes, it is possible to manually increase the latency of the hardware. In my digital mixer I can adjust a delay up to 300 ms in sample increments.

Best regards
Boris

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                                         Subject Increase latency

Date Tue Oct 1 2002 10:29

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

You wrote that you got an error message when you used the normal loopback (not the advanced). Was this wrong?

Please try to increase the latency to maximum and let me know if that works. That has worked on other sound cards.

Best,
Lars

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                                        - Subject Loopback errors

Date Thu Oct 3 2002 12:47

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

When working at 44.1 kHz with 14 bit MLS and
"Loopback with endcheck" (standard loopback signal) I am getting the following behaviour :
Measurement 1,3,5,.. : IR peak at 0 and 16380 samples, ie the pre IR ringing is at the end of the sampled range
Measurement 2,4,6,... : "Sync error : Loopback signal not found"
After acknowledging this message the next measurement will again behave like described above (meas. 1,3,5 etc.)

Re : Latency
I will try your suggestion but generally I prefer not to tweak a problem using additional delays.
I am quite happy working with the setting "Yes, my soundcard is synched".
Last week I have informed Matthias Carstens from RME about the problem - I don't know whether he has responded already.

Thanks for your help.

Boris Balin

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                                        - Subject Good news on RME HDSP

Date Tue Oct 22 2002 22:00

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

Hi Lars,
RME released a new Win2000/XP driver for the HDSP series of audio interfaces, version 2.41 dated 21.10.2002.
Initial tests showed a stable operation with none of the strange errors reported earlier occurring anymore.
Seems that this audio interface could be suitable for WinMLS finally.

Best regards

Boris Balin

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Subject Radio Shack SPL Meter for a mi/preamp?

Date Sat Oct 5 2002 12:09

Author jkrutke (threepoint14159265358979323846@yahoo.com)

I just got done modding my Rat Shack 33-2050 SPL meter for flat response. This includes the circuitboard cap changes and an external panasonic WM-60AY mic capsule, as seen at Eric Wallin's web site. http://www.gti.net/wallin/audio/rsmeter/33-2050/33-2050.html This SPL meter has an RCA output. I think this means it's got a built in preamp.

Is this sufficient for use with WinMLS? If so, I can't wait to give it a try, as I won't have to buy additional hardware.

Thanks,
John

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     Subject Calibration microphone

Date Mon Oct 14 2002 20:03

Author Jon Longtin

Behringer makes a measurement microphone as well that is inexpensive, the ECM8000. It has a very flat frequency response (hence no calibration curve required), is ommidirectional, and has the mic element at the end of a slender tube. Street price is $US 35-40. I have one, and it seems to work well, though I haven't compared it to anything else per se. Comments?

http://www.behringer.com/02_products/prodindex.cfm?id=ECM8000&lang=eng

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     Subject Calibration?

Date Tue Oct 8 2002 12:44

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

Yes, this should be sufficient. But you should calibrate the microphone to get correct results for high frequencies. We plan to sell calibrated microphones that you can connect directly to the sound card microphone output. That will be good enough for most applications involving measuring frequency responses.

Best,
Lars

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Subject Soundblaster Extigy

Date Mon Nov 4 2002 15:07

Author Markus Hofer (mh@smartsol.ch)

I'm considering buying a one of the cheaper versions of WINMLS. I'm now looking for sound device I can use on my notebook and I don't trust the audio quality of my builtin soundcard on my Compaq EVO 600c.
Just saw the external Sound Blaster Extigy in a shop, which is connected by USB to the PC. The technical data of the device seems to be quite good and the prices is rather low.
Has anybody used this device. Does it work together with WINMLS.


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     Subject Soundblaster ???

Date Mon Nov 4 2002 21:43

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

Check out: http://www.de.tomshardware.com/video/02q2/020404/
- Bad frequency response.
- No phantom power which you might need for a good microphone
- Soundblaster drivers are known for their incompatibilities with other soft/hardware.
I would check out the Edirol UA-5 and the Midiman USB Duo.

Best regards
Boris Balin

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         Subject Soundblaster ???

Date Tue Nov 5 2002 08:35

Author Markus Hofer (mh@smartsol.ch)

Boris

Thanks a lot for your answer. I checked your link and found the test report of the soundblaster. While the S/N ratio is ok, the frequency response is really unacceptable for measuring purposes.
I will check the products you suggested.

Markus


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             Subject What is wrong with the Extigy?

Date Wed Nov 6 2002 17:24

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

File: ExtigyFs48000.wmb

Markus and Boris,
thanks for your contributions. I feel that there are some issues here that has to be discussed.

First of all, we recommend and sell the VXpocket for use with WinMLS, but the Extigy is better than most of what we have tested.

Did you check the WinMLS help file? Please do so. The results from the Extigy test are found there. Open the help file (select Help Topics... on the Help menu in WinMLS). Then click the Search tab. Type "Extigy" and click the List Topics button.

I have tested the Extigy a while ago and found it to be very good compared to the price.
We also have users that are using it and they seem to be satisfied.

I tested the USB Duo today and you can forget about that, it does not work with MLS. It seems to be just like the USB Pre that you can read about here:
http://www.nvo.com/winmls/discussion1/

I assume the link you refer to that says the frequency response for the Extigy is bad is
http://www.de.tomshardware.com/video/02q2/020404/Creative_Extigy-08.html
This curve must be completely wrong!!! It does not seem to be serious. I wish they could use WinMLS for such testing ;-)
Attached is a measurement I did of the card. The frequency response is as you would expect, namely flat!

I hope this helps,
Lars

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                 Subject Soundblaster Extigy

Date Wed Nov 6 2002 19:12

Author Boris Balin (boris.balin@gmx.de)

Hi Lars,
when I saw the measurements at Tomshardware I was quite surprised to see such bad figures. Probably these tests were completely wrong according to your own measurements.
In general the soundblaster cards do not have a good reputation in the professional audio business - everyone working with them sooner or later will want to buy a more professional solution.
Anyway, it's good to know that this unit is suitable for WinMLS.

Best regards
Boris Balin

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Subject net noise by loop-back measurement

Date Wed Nov 20 2002 17:40

Author Werner Thurnheer (towerlilt@swissonline)

Dear Lars
Trying out WinMLS I follow the "Introduction to WinMLS 2000". Performing “The first measurements walk through” measurement 2 “A simple loudspeaker measurement” works fine avoiding the net noise by connecting bouth line out channels the left and the right with the ampifier. Trying Measurement 3 “Measuring using loop-back” I had the strong net noise (brumm) on the loud speaker I couldn’t remoove. I used the line in for the mic like performing without loop back. What to do?
Best, Werner

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     Subject Feedback on loudspeaker

Date Wed Dec 18 2002 02:20

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

Dear Werner,
thanks for the question.
I think what you call hum is a result of the signal going in to the sound card is played on the output also. This will give feedback.
Leg me know if this is the case.

The WinMLS mixer, if it is being used, should in most cases turn of the option causing this feedback on the loudspeaker.
In some cases it has to be done from the sound card mixer. Then you can open the sound card Playback mixer and see if there is a setting named microphone or line-in. If yes, they should be muted.

Best,
Lars

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         Subject feedback on loudspeaker / hum

Date Fri Mar 7 2003 14:39

Author Werner Thurnheer (towerlilt@swissonline.ch)

Dear Lars,
Turn off the soundcard mixer hadn't success. The same hum (from net frequency at 50 Hz) by one channel measurement I avoided by connecting both channels with the amplifier. Two speakers at the left line-out and loop-back at the right I reached now to avoid the hum by contacting the two minus poles of the line-out cables. Feedback I think didn't happen.
Best, Werner

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Subject How to plot a 3D/Mesh Spectrogram???

Date Sun Jan 5 2003 19:25

Author Olumide (50295@web.de)

I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to guide me on how to PLOT (in perspective) and SAVE (image to file) a 3D/Mesh Spectrogram of a small speech sample I earlier recorded.

Thanks


- Olumide

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     Subject 3D/Mesh Spectrogram

Date Mon Jan 6 2003 14:30

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

File: Waterfall_InWinMLS_NewVersion2.doc

Please have a look at the attached document (see link above).
To make use of these new features you need to download the latest beta version, do this from
http://www.nvo.com/winmls/latestbeta
Let me know if you have further questions.

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Subject intelligiblity

Date Thu Jan 9 2003 17:11

Author Bill Cantrall (bcantrall@dc.smwinc.com)

does this system test intelligibility (STI)? -if not, does anyone know if there is a purely software based system that does.


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     Subject STI is indeed supported

Date Sat Jan 11 2003 18:29

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

File: How to measure speech transmission indices STI or RASTI.doc

WinMLS can indeed measure STI (this question has been asked at the forum before, please see under ElectroAcoustics in this forum for other postings on STI).
We have verified the STI results from our software in several ways, e.g. participating in the SynAudCon workshop in Louisville this summer.
Please see the attachment (see link above) for a guide to how to perform STI measurements.
Let me know if you have further questions.

Best,
Lars

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Subject Use of Audio VCO

Date Sat Jan 25 2003 08:15

Author J.Y. Roy (soj@sympatico.ca)

I use a vibration sensor (DC coupled) to modulate an audio VCO from 240 Hz to 2400 Hz. Can I recover the vibration signal (varying DC) in a graph form using this sound card software. The VCO would be connected to the sound card audio input. Thanks. P.S.This application is similar to seismic recording.

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     Subject WinMLS sound card frequency range

Date Thu Jan 30 2003 18:38

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

You can measure down to 10 Hz on most sound cards. 1 Hz on some. The high-pass filter does that the response may not be flat. WinMLS can compensate this in several ways.
DC, 0 Hz is only possible on Turtle Beach Tahiti/Monterey sound card.
I hope this answered your question.

Best,
Lars

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Subject Suggestions for tutorials

Date Wed Feb 5 2003 21:56

Author Jon Longtin (pfredrick@hotmail.com)

Here is a list of some simple tutorial exercises that I have found useful, or thought would be useful, in learning WinMLS. I haven't written any of these up yet, but the list is a starting point. Please suggest additions and comments!

Suggested WinMLS Tutorials:

* - measure noise floor using a) tail of impulse response, and b) no excitation

* - measure response of an electronic equalizer (this example is nice because the room isn't involved, and the signals are clean and well defined)

* - measure room response, then play a constant sine wave at a specific frequency and repeat measurement to observe impact of sine wave on measurement.

* measure reflection of a pulse off a hard wall or floor (good for understanding basics of impulse responses).

* repeat above measurement, but place absorber on wall or floor and repeat measurement to assess reflection. Use 'compex divide' by reference spectrum to isolate contribuition from reflector

* - similar to above, measure impulse in a room, then place an absorber between speaker and mic to measure attenuation of absorber.

* - do a detailed calibration of the sound system using a simple sound meter (and possibly a voltmeter).

* - a simple example demonstrating the use and impact of pre-emphasis and de-emphasis

* - measuring loudspeaker reponse (use of windowing function).

* - correcting room response using measured loudspeaker response.




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Subject Edirol UA-1A

Date Thu Feb 6 2003 11:57

Author Steve Badham (steve@hslproductions.com)

File: edirol ua1a.wmb

I bought an Edirol UA-1A to use with my laptop. I measured it as per the WinMLS instruction book and got these results. If the results are correct, this interface is not suitable. Have I made a mistake here or does the interface have a problem?

The measurement file is attached

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     Subject UA-1A

Date Sun Mar 9 2003 16:45

Author John Mulcahy (nospam@nowhere.com)

The UA-1A has an internal loopback connection to allow monitoring of recorded signals, this plays havoc with MLS measurements -> you will find a reflection at about 60% of the initial impulse after 9.85ms and a very strange looking low frequency response. It is possible to fix this by making a mod to the card, specifically remove R28 and R35 (both 47k SMT parts). If you are not competent in modifying surface mount PCBs or would like your warranty to be worth something then making this mod cannot be recommended, but with the mod carried out the UA-1A does a very reasonable job. Note that the UA-1A is stricty at 44.1k device.

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     Subject Edirol UA-1A problems

Date Sat Feb 15 2003 18:30

Author Simon Carlsen (sicarlse@eunet.no)

If of any interest, I can tell you that I once bought the Edirol UA-1A with the purpose of making WinMLS measuerments from my laptop. I got much of the same problems as you, and it all ended up with that I delivered the device back to the seller and got it changed with an ordinary PCI device for use in my desktop PC.

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     Subject Sampling frequency difference?

Date Thu Feb 6 2003 21:34

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

Dear Steve,
thanks for your message. By looking at the measurement, it seems like the Edirol UA-1A has the same problem as the USB Pre, namely that the sampling frequency of the input is slightly different than the output.

If you want to measure using the MLS method you cannot use this sound device to obtain good results since MLS is very dependent on that the sampling frequency is exactly the same. But you can use the sine sweep method that is available in our beta version. On how to download, see
http://www.nvo.com/winmls/latestbeta/

To get good results with the sine sweep method, you also need to follow the instructions given in
http://www.nvo.com/winmls/nss-folder/discussion1/USBPrewithWinMLSbeta.doc

Other questions about this subject is posted at
http://www.nvo.com/winmls/discussion1

Let me know if this helps. We sell and recommend the Digigram VX pocket v2 for professional users.

Best,
Lars

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Subject How to get MOTU828 working

Date Sun Feb 23 2003 23:09

Author Håvard Christensen (havard@kulturhus.no)

I have several problems getting my MOTU828 working with WinMLS. The drivers seem to be correctly installed an the computer(laptop P4m 1800MHz) is obviously in contact with the unit.
-The loopback measurements look all wrong, and they change every time the program is terminated. Then one out of 30. times(or so) it just seems perfect, but if the program is terminated its all wrong again the next time. Actually a similar reading will be obtained with nothing connected to it.
-I have tried disabeling as many prosesses as possible on the computer, but this seems to have no effect on the readings.
-Another confusing problem is when choosing "measuring with loopback and endcheck". There is no right output on the device and it will always send on two channels simultanosly whatewer you do. If trying to connect the second channel as loopback-synch, an signal increase will appear on channel one even thoug its connected to channel two(whitch will show no signal at all.)

I hope this problem can be solved.

Håvard Christensen

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Subject Excellent new sine sweep technique!

Date Thu Feb 27 2003 09:08

Author Olav Mellum Arntzen (olav@seas.no)

File: ATBvsWinMLS.jpg

We are now testing the new sine sweep measurement technique that is included in the newest version of WinMLS. Using this method, you can measure all the seperate harmonics in one sweep.
For a loudspeaker we could go down to a sweep length of below a second, and still get decent results. The attached .jpg file shows a comparison with another measurement program called ATB Precision.

We will now try to evaluate the use of this method for detecting rub & buzz in loudspeaker QC control.

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Subject Giving up on MOTU

Date Fri Mar 7 2003 00:19

Author Håvard Christensen (havard@kulturhus.no)

I finally had realise that MOTU828 was not working together with my Compac EVO laptop. It was never stabile enough to perform measurements with WinMLS. I have tried all tuning possabilities to free system resourses, but nothing really made any difference. WindowsXP is said to be very stabile performing audio tasks, but some tuning can be made to make it even better. For those interested visit www.musicxp.net

Best regards
Håvard Christensen

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     Subject Giving up on MOTU

Date Mon Mar 31 2003 16:44

Author Pat Brown (patb@synaudcon.com)

There are two (at least) issues that 828 users need to consider. The first is the Firewire chipset that your computer uses. IEEE1394 is a rather loose standard, and some chipsets simply won't work with the 828. I believe that the approved chipsets are listed on the MOTU website. If your's isn't compatible, you will get pops, clicks, timing errors and other disgusting things. Very frustrating. I would recommend connecting the 828 to your computer and simply trying to play back some wave files through it. You can always add a PC card with a compatible chipset if necessary.

The other "issue" is the grounding scheme. The 828 uses the internal signal ground on all I/O connectors. This creates terrible noise problems when cables of any significant length are used. I "fixed" mine by building a "breakout" panel with XLR jacks and grounding pin 1 straight to the rack panel, which is then grounded to the 828 chassis. It is now very quiet.

Hope that helps...

Pat

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Subject Graph overlay

Date Mon Mar 31 2003 13:58

Author Rick Brehm (brehm@mindless.com)

Is it possible to overlay phase and magnitude on the same plot?

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     Subject Re. Graph Overlay

Date Tue Apr 1 2003 12:06

Author Kjell Olav Aalmo (koaa@online.no)

No, it is not possible at this moment, but it's planed to come with a future release.

Yours sincerely
Kjell Olav

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Subject Tascam US-122

Date Tue Oct 14 2003 08:21

Author Doug Dodge (drdodge@dodgeandco.com)

Does any body know if the Tascam US-122 device is compatable with WinMLS?

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Subject Which version do I need ?

Date Mon Oct 20 2003 08:58

Author David L. Debertin (DLDebertin@aol.com)

OK
I have 8 or 9 pairs of loudspeakers in various rooms plus a High-end Dell laptop running XP. I would like to make some simple close-mike frequency response curves for these speakers and also check crossover designs on some things I am building

1. Which version of the program should I download/purchase?

2. Will any computer mike do or should I be looking to purchase a mike specific for this purpose?
3. other than the mike, will there be anything else that needs to be attached to the computer?

Thanks for answering my dumb questions.

David

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     Subject Reply to questions

Date Mon Dec 8 2003 13:28

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

1. If you are not going to use it for professional usage, purchase the WinMLS Standard Personal.

2. You should not use any computer mike! The frequency response is most likely horrible. But you can modify the computer mike by removing the housing. That would help.

3. You need a sound card, please test the software before purchasing to make sure it works properly. If not, contact us.

Best,
Lars Morset

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Subject Echo Audio Indigo IO card

Date Thu Oct 23 2003 11:57

Author Richard Brehm (brehm@mindless.com)

Has anyone tried the Echo Indigo IO card?

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Subject Low cost - low accuracy RT measurement

Date Tue Nov 18 2003 09:51

Author Dominic Read (dread@ingenico-us.com)

I want to do some low accuracy Reverb Time measurements so that I can improve the acoustics in some very 'live' classrooms that my son uses. He has Sensory Integration Disorder and it seems that rooms where there is a long Reverb Time in the mid to high frequency ranges actually cause him some pain. I want to improve the acoustics at a minimum cost, hence the need to measure before and after adding acoustic tiles etc.
What kind of speaker / amplifier is necessary (minimum cost) for classroom sized rooms where low accuracy results are acceptable?
Also (a little off topic), does anyone have any tips for where to add the tiles for the most effect in this type of case. The rooms typically have bare-ish walls, flat painted ceiling and linoleum tiled floor. It isnt possible to put carpet in, otherwise this would be my first choice.
Thanks

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     Subject RT-measurements in classrooms

Date Mon Dec 8 2003 13:20

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

Dear Dominic,
the problem you are addressing is interesting. In Norway the RT must be measured in classrooms where one or more of the pupils have bad hearing. In fact, we have sold many few measurement packages for this purpose. They find WinMLS a lot faster and easier to use than their old and very expensive equipment.

Those that do these measurements have Excel spread sheets that convert the measured RT-values to absorption material needed.

To do the measurement you can use any loudspeaker. But you should measure in at least three positions and average the results. Our package currently consists of the Genelec 1029A active loudspeaker.

Best,
Lars

____________________________________________________
want to do some low accuracy Reverb Time measurements so that I can improve the acoustics in some very 'live' classrooms that my son uses. He has Sensory Integration Disorder and it seems that rooms where there is a long Reverb Time in the mid to high frequency ranges actually cause him some pain. I want to improve the acoustics at a minimum cost, hence the need to measure before and after adding acoustic tiles etc.
What kind of speaker / amplifier is necessary (minimum cost) for classroom sized rooms where low accuracy results are acceptable?
Also (a little off topic), does anyone have any tips for where to add the tiles for the most effect in this type of case. The rooms typically have bare-ish walls, flat painted ceiling and linoleum tiled floor. It isnt possible to put carpet in, otherwise this would be my first choice.

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Subject Best USB Interfaces??

Date Wed Nov 19 2003 06:13

Author Andy Godwin (arg@rgsound.com)

Does the USB interfaces work with WINMLS 2000... I am looking at digidesign MBox or the Edirol UA-5 usb interfaces...... anyone use these?

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     Subject Lexicon

Date Thu Feb 12 2004 17:12

Author Peupeul0 (peupeul0@viedemerde.org)

You should get some infos on the OMEGA STUDIO LEXICON
wich is the usb interface from lexicon with with 2 mic preamp + 48 volts and pad and 4 ligne in for a very good price

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     Subject MBox and Edirol UA-5

Date Mon Dec 8 2003 13:11

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

The Mbox does not work yet, but I have heard that Digidesign is working on a driver for it.

A New-York consultant has been trying to use the Edirol UA-5 and it did work, but it had so much problems with it that he ended up purchasing a Digigram VXpocket card from us.

My experience is: If you want to avoid problems, use the equipment we recommend.

Best,
Lars

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Subject Changing sound card levels

Date Wed Nov 26 2003 17:21

Author Brian Kohagen (brian@kohagen.net)

File: MobilePre USB error.wmb

I noticed that my measurements have started to include a wired anomoly at the end of the impluse measurment. at the Very end I get a Full scall spike in the measuerment? I had my audio cards control open while WinMLS was taking the measurement, and I noticed that the level controls were changing during the measurement on the sound card window, but not on the WinMLS mixer window, they movent's seem to coorespond to the anomoly in the measurement. This only happens when I try to do a Sync's measurement. The whole response looks fine except for the end.

I am using a M-Audio MobilePre USB sound device with my laptop. I have attached a sample reading

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     Subject Re: Changing sound card levels

Date Wed Dec 3 2003 15:51

Author Magnus Ognedal (m.ognedal@winmls.com)

Go to Measurement -> Sound Card Settings...
In the "Include initial time delay in meas." dialog box select "No, detect start of measurement".
Then try to measure.
Please report if this works.

(This does not apply to the beta-version, in case you are using it).

-Magnus Ognedal

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Subject measuring time variant systems

Date Fri Jan 30 2004 08:54

Author Knut Inge Hvidsten (kih@ffi.no)

Hello. I`m in the process of purchasing a personal license for home use (although I`m not shure where I would get that 8 digit code from, do I have to d/l and install the demo before paying?)


My real question would be if there is a clever way to measure time variant systems using mls or log-swept sine methods? PReferreably in such a way that time/frequency resolution can be adjusted post measurement.


My application would be getting a (large) set of IRs from a rotating speaker. One way would be disengaging the motors and manually move the speaker at constant angular intervals between each measurement. If, say, 256 measurements are needed, this would require a lot of work as compared to letting the motors run and then taking the weekend off :-)

could winmls accept a synch input (say a short audio burst/impulse at angle0) ?

Or would this be better accomplished writing a matlab application that generate a series of stepped increasing-frequency sines and measure the amplitude and phaseshift of each?

I can see this also having some relevance to measuring directivity of loudspeakers as well as some hrtf stuff?


best regards
Knut Inge Hvidsten
FFI (Norwegian Defence Research Establishment)
multimedia signal-processing, NTNU

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     Subject measuring time variant systems

Date Wed Jul 14 2004 12:03

Author Lars Morset (morset@winmls.com)

|My real question would be if there is a clever way to measure |time variant systems using mls or log-swept sine methods? |PReferreably in such a way that time/frequency resolution can |be adjusted post measurement.

This is exactly what WinMLS will do. Follow the "The first measurement walk-through" sections in the help file which will explain how to do this.


|My application would be getting a (large) set of IRs from a |rotating speaker. One way would be disengaging the motors and |manually move the speaker at constant angular intervals |between each measurement. If, say, 256 measurements are |needed, this would require a lot of work as compared to |letting the motors run and then taking the weekend off :-)

|could winmls accept a synch input (say a short audio |burst/impulse at angle0) ?

You can use auto-saving features and the "automatic start of new measurement after previous measurement". You can also run a .exe-file after each measurement to control your turntable. See 'Measurement->Tasks...' in WinMLS.


|Or would this be better accomplished writing a matlab |application that generate a series of stepped |increasing-frequency sines and measure the amplitude and |phaseshift of each?

WinMLS will easily do this. You can also easily run WinMLS from Matlab if that is desired. On how to do this, search the help file with the search word "Matlab".


|I can see this also having some relevance to measuring |directivity of loudspeakers as well as some hrtf stuff?

Yes, personally I have used WinMLS for this purpose since 1998. Pat Brown, SynAudCon, is now working on a WinMLS-based a system for loudspeaker directivity measurements.

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Subject How to shift a measurement

Date Tue Feb 3 2004 23:59

Author Boris Balin (bbalin@avconsult-web.de)

I made some loudspeaker frequency response measurements, some of them with input calibration, some without. Both plots differ around 90 regarding SPL(dB).
How can I align both curves to see more clearly the difference between the two curves ?

Best regards
Boris Balin

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     Subject Re: How to shift a measurement

Date Mon Feb 16 2004 18:44

Author Magnus Ognedal (m.ognedal@winmls.com)

What you need to do is to normalise the view. This can be done if you go to this menu option: Plot -> Plot Type Setting -> Active Plot. Under "Shift/Normalization of Level" choose "Shift level". This will let you adjust one of the curves up or down.

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         Subject It works - thanks !

Date Mon Feb 16 2004 20:11

Author Boris Balin (bbalin@avconsult-web.de)

It's not obvious from looking at the menu and the help file - but it works.
Thank you.

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Subject PHASE MESURMENT OF SOUND SYSTEM

Date Fri Feb 20 2004 12:53

Author COULIBRE VLADIMIR (vladimir.coulibre@wanadoo.fr)

In first time I would like to say it's really a plaesure to work with the WINMLS. I work to calibrate sound systems on music live and I search a procedure to find the best phase between sub-bass and low frequency of the PA. I tried lot of plots mesurements but I would like you give me indications to optimise this work. Especially with the 'PHASE' window.
Thanks a lot

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     Subject Crossover Control setup

Date Tue Jul 13 2004 13:04

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

In the latest version of WinMLS 2004 there is a setup called Crossover Control under the Loudspeaker category. Check out this setup and read the wizard included in this setup. We would apreciate feedback on this setup.
Hope this helps.

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Subject Environmental measurement

Date Tue Mar 2 2004 16:28

Author Kent Peterson (kapeterson@sehinc.com)

Greetings-interesting product. But, what about us guys that split our time between architectural AND environmental measurements. You state "vibrations" in your description however, I see no mention of SPL/time (including window views),SPL/freq, "L" values,LEQ, RTA or standard pollution control values such as OSHA and EPA (US) etc...
Just curious- I split my time between TEF,SMAART and calibrated meters- would be nice to have some of these things in one package.

Thanks!

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     Subject Environmental measurement

Date Tue Jul 13 2004 13:08

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

Some basic parameters are already implemented in the 2004 version. Go to the Setup menu, choose load and take a look in the catagory/folder named Level(Noise). We are working on implementing more parameters and logging fascility.

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Subject Novation Remote 25 audio

Date Mon Mar 8 2004 15:25

Author Daniel Nordh (rundspark@hotmail.com)

I'm trying to evaluate WinMLS with a Novation Remote25 audio usb interface but I'm having trouble. I don't get any sound to be recognized in WinMLS. It outputs the testsignal fine but nothing is recorded. I now that the input works perfectly in other soundprograms. Is there a general problem with usb devices?

Regards,
Daniel Nordh

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     Subject Input line

Date Wed Jun 9 2004 12:47

Author Lars Morset (support@winmls.com)

There is generally no problems with USB devices if you have set up your PC correctly. We have tested several sound cards with WinMLS but not your USB device. Any information about this is appreciated.

If you are using the WinMLS mixer, the problem is probably that the input line is not correctly reckognized. This can be solved by turning off the WinMLS mixer and setting the levels from the Windows mixer.

In the WinMLS 2004 beta this problem should be solved even if still using the WinMLS mixer.

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Subject user interface

Date Sat Mar 27 2004 15:47

Author Rudy (rudytomaz@yahoo.co.uk)

How is it possible to get all freq resps in the same waterfall plot? This is for comparisson of reps of different angles of a polar response. Several pre-measured imp resps were saved in seperate files. It is possible to load then all in the same time domain plot, but in the freq domain, I have been able to get all only to some kind of plots.

Thanks,

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     Subject Plotting in 3D

Date Wed Jun 9 2004 13:54

Author Lars Morset (support@winmls.com)

You can compare several measured frequency responses in a 3-D plot!
To do this, first make sure that 'Plot->Overlay' is checked.

Open the files you want to plot from 'File->Open...'. Mark all the files you need while holding down the shift button.

Now click the F6 button to open the Edit dialog. There click the 3D tab. Make sure "3 Dimensions" is checked. You might have to modify the 3D%, rotation and elevation settings in this dialog.

Best,
Lars Morset

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Subject Recommended Soundcards, mics., etc.

Date Sun Mar 28 2004 03:51

Author M. Fubara (Fubara@earthlink.net)

One of the posts mentioned "recommended soundcards," but I'm unable to find the info on your fascinating site.

Would it be possible to put up a list in a conspicuous place for all tested hardware, including mics., preamps,cards, etc.?

For those of us interested in precision, stability,reliability and reproducability in measuerment,some attention to "high- end" components would be nice.

Thank you.

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     Subject High end components

Date Wed Jun 9 2004 13:44

Author Lars Morset (support@winmls.com)

>One of the posts mentioned "recommended soundcards," but I'm >unable to find the info on your fascinating site.

We sell and recommend the Digigram sound cards for high-end usage. Download the software and open the help file for more info.

>Would it be possible to put up a list in a conspicuous place >for all tested hardware, including mics., preamps,cards, >etc.?

>For those of us interested in precision, >stability,reliability and reproducability in >measuerment,some attention to "high- end" components would >be nice.

I agree. The reason that we have not done this yet is that most of our current customers already have high-end mics. and pre-amplifiers.

We do sell a high-quality package for acoustical measurements that consists of equipment we are happy with. Contact us directly for more info.

Best,
Lars Morset

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Subject Printing gridlines on B&W Printer

Date Fri Apr 2 2004 09:24

Author Andy Wilson (andy@promonitor.co.uk)

I am currently running the evaluation version of WinMLS V3.00 build 10b On a Dell Inspiron 1100 running XP. I cannot find a way of printing the gridlines in a frequency response plot on a monochrome printer. Is there a setup I'm missing in the menus?. Many thanks for advice.

Andy

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     Subject Printing

Date Wed Jun 9 2004 13:38

Author Lars Morset (support@winmls.com)

Can you try to go to 'File->Print Preview...'. In this dialog at the bottom left try to increase the detail level.
If you are using WinMLS 2004 you can also go to 'File->Print Preview All...' (then the detail level will be remembered for the next time you open the dialog).

If this does not work, you can try to set the gridlines color to black. Open the WinMLS Help file, click the Search tab and type the search word 'Gridlines'. This should lead you to the "How to turn on and modify gridlines" section.

Best,
Lars Morset

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Subject octave band smoothing/integrating

Date Fri Apr 2 2004 16:07

Author F. Arneton (arneton@gmx.de)

Hello!
I want to compare two wav-files according to the energy contained within certain octave bands (center freq. 125, 250, 500, 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k).
Therefore I use the 'Freq. Responce -Spectrum' function.
What kind of smoothing option (1-octave integrated vs. octave - no correction (start freq. 125, smooth over 1 pts. and 1 octave)) shows the right results?
Kind regards
F. Arneton

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     Subject octave bands

Date Wed Jun 9 2004 12:51

Author Lars Morset (support@winmls.com)

This referred to the WinMLS 2004 version:

To display octave and one-third octave band values a better way than using smoothing is to use '1-Oct. Integrated' or '1/3-Oct. Integrated'. This is in the window Frequency Response/Spectrum Settings.
Press F5 when the frequency response plot is active to open this dialog box. Find the Calculation Settings in the upper right corner.

The easiest way is to go to "Setup->Load..." and load the setup named "Level (Noise)_dBA (third oct. bands)". This will display the one-third octave bands.

Best,
Lars Morset

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Subject WinMLS mixer and Windows XP

Date Wed Apr 7 2004 21:42

Author walter schlupp (schlupp@sinos.net)

My WinMLS mixer working with Windows XP still does not detect the correct inputs when doing loop back measurement.

Sound card: Terratec DMX6 Fire (similar to EAX).


The first steps tutorial is not clear what kind of result I should find then, like when working with the card´s own mixer. No error messages appear.

I have no problems with other simple measurements of first go-through steps.

I do not know the exact nature of MLS measurements. How come the tutorial speaks of "impulse response" when the signal sent is not an impulse, but a window of white (?) noise on the time axis?

Any recommendation on where to find MLS readings?

Regards
Walter

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     Subject Mixer and "impulse response"

Date Wed Jun 9 2004 13:59

Author Lars Morset (support@winmls.com)

You do not have to use the WinMLS mixer, you can set the levels using the Windows mixer.

There has been improvement to the WinMLS mixer in the WinMLS 2004 beta version so the WinMLS mixer should work now.

Please visit
www.nvo.com/winmls/latestbeta
to get the latest version, also with the latest help section files.

The "impulse response" is the response we get when sending a short pulse through a system (e.g. a loudspeaker). Since using a short pulse itself does not give a god result, we use either MLS noise or a sine sweep to obtain the same thing. Read the WinMLS 2004 help file for more info.

Best,
Lars Morset

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Subject Measuring without Loop-Back

Date Thu May 20 2004 16:35

Author Björn Schulz (boemms@web.de)

Hello.
I am planning to do some acoustical measuring with WinMLS in a room. Therefore I have a Laptop and the external sound device "Creative Sound Blaster MP3+". This sound device offers chinch line-in and line-out as well es optical-in and optical-out. For the measuring I want to use the optical-in plug for the microphone and the optical-out plug for the loudspeaker. I want to use them instead of the analog chinch plugs because I want to avoid over-pitching and the optical plugs are digital. The optical-in is connected to an coax-opto-transducer and this cable goes directly into a cortex nc 10 sound-analyzer. The cortex is connected to the microphone. It´s only use is to let the signal of the microphone pass through to send it digitally to the coax-opto-transducer (and to the external sound-card).
The problem is now, that - with only one optical line-in and one optical line-out - there are no plugs left for the loop-back. That´s why I wanted to ask you if it is possible to do the loop-back another way or just to measure without loop-back. (I have not checked yet if it is possible to do the loop-back with the chinch-plugs but I think it is not possible).
Thank you.
B. Schulz
Germany

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     Subject Measuring without Loop-Back

Date Tue Jul 13 2004 13:17

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

Here are some suggestions on what to do (with WinMLS 2004):

- I guess it is easier to use analog connectors due to the setup of output channels. Make
sure you send signal to both left and right in the generator setup.
- Try to split the
minijack cable from the output with a mini-jack to phono cable and send the
right signal back to line-in.
- Or you could check if Extigy have some internal signal path (for instance
called Stereo mix) you could route your signal through.

In all cases you use generator and not right channel as reference, and make
sure you use the WinMLS mixer - otherwise you'll have to use the control
panel for Extigy to route your signals. Press the Delay button in the measurement settings window to define your loop back.

Please note that you do not
need a loop-back if you don't need the delay time in your measurement.

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Subject Use of blank pistol and 2 Microphones

Date Wed May 26 2004 08:30

Author Björn Schulz (boems@web.de)

Hello.
When measuring an impulse excitated by a blank pistol your staff told me to use 2 microphones, one directly at the pistol, one at the receiver position. I´ve been told that the measurement would start automatically when the microphone at the pistol gets the excitation signal from it.
I tried to find the settings of this kind of automatic start but I couldn´t! The only way of starting a measurement I know is to press the green "go"-button.
And measuring with "No, detect start of measurement" would mean that the first sample of the impulse is set to the beginning of the plot. For room acoustical parameters like the Center Time this would lead to artificial results wouldn´t it?
Thank you.

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     Subject Use of blank pistol and 2 Microphones

Date Tue Jul 13 2004 13:24

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

If you measure with two microphones with triggered start of measurement, the
measurement will start when sound pressure level at the microphone at the
pistol gets above a given threshold. Then the measurement starts when the
sound "departures" from the pistol.

This refers to the 2004 version which has improved trigger fascilities. Choose Scope Mode/Data Acquisition in the measurement settings window (on top) and transient as signal type.

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Subject Need a short "dummie" walkthrough, pleas

Date Thu Jun 10 2004 19:08

Author joerg (jwitzsch@gmx.de)

File: frequenzgangmagnepan.gif

Hello,
just downloaded the evaluation version and got the code from you. What I need, is s really short "dummie"-walkthrough with the following steps, since the frequency response I just measured seems to suffer from the soundcards limitations as well. (Computer is a Samsung X10 Laptop, measuring microphone is the calibration mic of Denon's newest 3805 Receiver, which is supposed to be an Audiotechnica mic, as I heard)
So please guide me through this list, if possible.

1.) Opening the program - which setup to choose for measuring the frequency response of my loudspeaker?
2.) Calibrating the system: how can I "substract" the nonlinear frequency-response of my soundcard/lineout/mic-in from the measurement ( I have the strong feeling, that already the soundcard has a big rolloff in both bass and treble!!)
3.) How do I store the eventual "errorfile", so that with futere measurements, at least the bad frequency response of the soundcard is leveled out and does not enter in the measurement?
4.) Are there other "error-correction"-mechanisms, that could be applicable for my system (laptop, microphone)
5.) Which exact measurement method is the right one to get a normal frequency response diagram of my loudspeakers, as I am used from magazines? I did some tests, where the curve was about linear, with a slow increase towards the bass, and the another diagram, which looked much more like what I was expecting?
Thanks for helping out - I browsed through the helpfile, but I could not find the appropriate answers, yet.
Attached, there is one of the tests I did.....

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     Subject Walk-through in WinMLS

Date Wed Jul 14 2004 11:59

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

For a measurement walk-through; go to WinMLS Startup Help in the Help menu.
This should answer your questions. But answers to your questions is given below.

1) You can choose the setup called "Freq. and time response" under the General category. ('Setup->Load...')
2) When you have measured the sound card with loop-back; press Ctrl+Alt+C, control the name and press OK. In the measurement settings choose Generator as Reference and hook on Correct and choose your sound card from the list.
3) The file stored under 2) is stored for later use
4) If you know the sensitivity of your microphone for different frequencies, these can be entered to compensate. Search for "microphone compensation" in the help section f WinMLS 2004.
5) You can measure with sine sweep. Be aware of smoothing of the frequency response curve. To see the overall response, 1/3 octave smoothing may be used and also make things look better... Search for "smoothing" in the help section to learn more about this.

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Subject WinMLS2004/WinMLS2000 license??

Date Fri Jun 18 2004 19:09

Author Tako Tamas (ttako@hit.hu)

Hi,
I purchesed the WinMLS2000 personal license and now I downloaded the WinMLS2004 update file. I don't know, if I could now start the WinMLS2000 and transfer the license to the WinMLS2004? Is is possible? Or I just can use it "try free"??

Thanks,

Tako Tamas


Enter your message here.

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     Subject Transfer 2000 to 2004 not possible

Date Wed Jul 14 2004 11:52

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

WinMLS 2004 is an independent application. No unlock codes beween the 2000 and the 2004 version are interchangable. Fill in the registration form at www.nvo.com/winmls/evaluate to obtain an unlock code for 30 days free evaluation of WinMLS 20004.

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         Subject Transfer license from WINmls2000 to 2004

Date Fri Oct 8 2004 10:11

Author Tako Tamas (ttako@hit.hu)

Hi,

I am sorry, I did a stupid mistake. I tryed to transfer the license from my WINMLS2000 to the WINMLS2004 before I'got the answer from you that this is not possible...
I can give you the serial nr generated by WINMLS2004 and the password wich was generated by the WINMLS2000 for this serial nr.
Can you then give me maybe new password for my WINMLS2000 when I send you the new serial nr of the 2000?

thanks,

Tamas Tako

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             Subject Backward transfer

Date Mon Nov 15 2004 16:04

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

If you haven't heard from WinMLS Support regarding your problem we would like to apology. If you haven't; yes, please send me generated unlock code for serial number on WinMLS 2004 and the new serial number on WinMLS 2000.

Generally we recommend reading about how to transfer and backup your license when registering your product.

Hope this helps.

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Subject Sine Sweep vs MLS?

Date Wed Jul 7 2004 11:00

Author Hal Hamilton (hal.hamilton@motorola.com)

Can anyone point me to an article or other source that explains why sine sweep is "preferred" over MLS? I'd also like to know how sine sweep can measure a loudspeaker in an uncharacterized room (I've heard it is OK for this, but don't understand how).

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     Subject Sine Sweep vs MLS?

Date Fri Nov 19 2004 09:42

Author Ingolf Bork (ingolf.bork@ptb.de)

Journal of the AES Vol 49 No6, June 2001, pp443:
S.Müller, P. Massarani: Tranfer-Function Measurement with sweeps

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     Subject Transfer-function measurement article

Date Tue Jul 13 2004 14:21

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

Try to download this document called "Transfer-Function Measurement with Sweeps":
http://www.anselmgoertz.de/Page10383/Monkey_Forest_dt/Manual_dt/Aes-swp.pdf

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Subject Hard Drive Crash

Date Wed Jul 7 2004 15:47

Author Hal Hamilton (hal.hamilton@motorola.com)

If WinMLS is installed on a computer and the hard drive dies or is just replaced, when WinMLS is installed on the new drive will the same unlock code work?

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     Subject Backup your license

Date Fri Jul 16 2004 09:54

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

Yes, this should not be any problem. See explanation below

Very important: Backup your license after registering WinMLS
When WinMLS is registered, a license backup file will be is created in the folder where WinMLS is installed. Take a backup of this file on a floppy or another medium in case the hard drive should crash.
In the case of a PC's Windows installation requiring a reinstall, it is possible that the license details for WinMLS may be lost. In this event, the license backup file that is created on registration, is used to restore the license details.
Should the license need restoring, place the backup file in the same directory as WinMLS is installed and run the program. The file will be read and the registration details restored. Once restored, the file does not have to remain in the directory as the registration details are written back into the program.

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Subject Mbox ?

Date Thu Sep 16 2004 21:16

Author jeronimo

If one of you, users, knows, if MLS and the Mbox drivers for XP works well... just answer me.
Many Xanks.

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     Subject Wavedriver playback only

Date Wed Sep 22 2004 17:31

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

"The Digidesign WaveDriver 6.1.1 is a two-channel, multimedia sound driver that allows third-party audio applications to play back through channels 1-2 of any Pro Tools LE system on Windows XP." From Digidesign's homepage

As far as I know, there is no driver for recording by third-party programs in Windows XP with Mbox. I asked Digidesign about this once, and I was told it may come in the future.

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Subject MS Wave format

Date Wed Sep 22 2004 08:58

Author Andrew (asteel@bigpond.net.au)

Hi,
I have been considering WinMLS and would like to know a little more about the protocols/file types used for I/O. I read that it is MS Wave, do you have more infoprmation or can you direct me to another resource please?
Andrew

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     Subject Supported formats in WinMLS

Date Wed Sep 22 2004 17:37

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

WinMLS supports the following file types (read/write):

- .wmb (WinMLS binary files)
- .wmt (WinMLS text files)
- .wav (16 MS wave files)
- .tim (MLSSA files)

I hope this answered your question.

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Subject should i buy a motu 828

Date Sun Sep 26 2004 23:01

Author Olivier (olivier.beniere@libertysurf.fr)

I'm planing to buy a motu 828 and i would like to know if i could use it without troubles to make sound systeme calibrations.And which version of the program is the best for this sound card.
Thank you for your response.

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     Subject Motu 828

Date Wed Oct 6 2004 10:25

Author Michael Häck (mhaeck@t-online.de)

I´m using WinMLS 2000 with a Motu828 and a EdirolUA25 for sound system measuring without any trouble.

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Subject New WinMLS2004-Version

Date Tue Oct 19 2004 17:08

Author Peter Falke (peter@falke-mm.de)

Hello,

I just purchased WinMLS2000 Personal on Oct. 1st. When I visited the WinMLS website a few days later I recognized, that there is a new version of WinMLS which includes sweep-measurement (which would be very helpful for me).
But I couldn't find any purchase-info or upgrade-policy (because I nought just when the new version wasreleased). if I try to use the 'Sales'-link I only get the opinion to buy the old version.

Does anyone know, how to get WinMLS2004 (and not only the Evualiation-Key).

Thanks Peter

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     Subject WinMLS 2004 upgrade and purchase

Date Thu Oct 28 2004 11:13

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

We are working on our upgrade policy for WinMLS 2004 upgrade from WinMLS 2000. Check out this forum for updated information to come.

The personal licenses is planned to be available from Share-It! during next week. To purchase a professional license: Contact us at sales@winmls.com.

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Subject Some interest in winMLS on another forum

Date Tue Oct 26 2004 09:02

Author Knut Inge Hvidsten (knutinh@stud.ntnu.no)

There has been a lot of interest and debate on winMLS and similar software at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=91

regards
Knut

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     Subject WinMLS on AVS-forum

Date Thu Oct 28 2004 11:18

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

Thanks for your information, but I was not able to open the given link. The server may be temporarily down.

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Subject System Requirement

Date Wed Oct 27 2004 11:57

Author Lena Petrova (zelenova@hotmail.com)

I cannot find anywhere in your site the system requirement for WinMls2000 and WinMls2004? Do they work both with WinXP, I mean the software themselves, or they need Win95, 98 or other. I never used your products before, and since I am a student in Acoustics, I am very interested in personal version.
Can you, please, answer, which version of Windows is the most compatible?

Thank you

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     Subject System Requirements

Date Thu Oct 28 2004 11:27

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

The system requirements will depend on your task. What would you like do with WinMLS? The best way to check that your system will suffice, is to download and evaluate WinMLS on your system with your specific task.

General system requirements can be found here:
http://www.winmls.com/hjelpfiler/systemrequirements1.htm

Hope this helps.

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Subject Can't load stereo PCM *.wav files?

Date Sat Nov 6 2004 13:46

Author David Conant (dconant@MCBinc.com)

File: unfilAC5200.wav

The WinMLS 2000 info on the website clearly states: "Two channel options like lateral fraction and inter-aural crosscorrelation are also provided", yet when I attempt to load any perfectly fine 16-bit wave file that the WinMLS2004 version has dealt with just fine (such as the attached), I get an error stating "16-bit mono only is supported".

So if IACC is stated as available in WinMLS2000, why can't I load such files for post-processing?

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     Subject 2 channel calculations in WinMLS 2000

Date Mon Nov 8 2004 10:13

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

Go to the help section, 'Help->Help Topics' and search for "FAQ" and choose "FAQ Room Acoustics". On the list you'll find the topic "How to specify two measurements for computing room acoustics parameters?".

In WinMLS you have to split your stereo wav file to two mono files, since this version of WinMLS, as you write, supports 16 mono files only.

I have taken a quick look at your attached wav file. The signal to noise ratio is very low. If this file is the complete impulse response; increase the signal level, reduce background noise level or increase measurement length or number of averages (using MLS) to improve the result.

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Subject WinMLS 2004 THD+N Plot

Date Sat Nov 13 2004 12:36

Author Roger Welch (rogerjmwelch@ntlworld.com)

File: Unplottable THD Measurement.wmb

I am currently evaluating WinMLS 2004 for possible use in carrying out comparative measurements of a series of subwoofers. I am particularly interested in the ability to plot continuous THD graphs in parallel with Frequency Response versus SPL graphs as this will save me a lot of time in carrying out the tests. In trying to verify the THD figures shown to satisfy myself that I am measuring genuine figures, I have tried to use the setup file General - Harmonic Distortion (Sinusoid) and carried out measurements at nominated fixed frequencies and SPL for comparison. However, the problem I have is that WinMLS refuses to plot a THD+N figure for certain frequency settings. It plots the Power Spectrum, Normalised Time Data and ETF plots fine at these frequency settings but refuses to plot the corresponding THD+N figure. I attach an example measurement file that refuses to plot in this way. The frequency is set to 30.03Hz using the Sine generator. If I simply change the frequency to 24.90Hz it works fine. It also works fine at higher frequencies like 59.33Hz. Can you please advise if I am doing something wrong, as I really need this to work before I can consider purchase?

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     Subject Re: WinMLS 2004 THD+N Plot

Date Sat Nov 13 2004 13:28

Author Roger Welch (rogerjmwelch@ntlworld.com)

Oops! I may have answered my own question here. It only fails to plot if I leave the plot settings at the default THD+N (External Sinusoid). If I change to one of the Internal Sinusoid settings (I am using the soundcard output to generate the test signal), it works. I would still be interested to know why this makes such a difference.

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         Subject THD+N internal/external

Date Wed Nov 24 2004 12:45

Author Lars Morset (morset-at-winmls.com)

You solved this yourself, good. Anyway, here is a description and some comments:

In the wizard (to start the wizard if it is not started automatically, go to 'Measurement->Wizard->Start') for this setup you are mentioning, there is a text saying:
IMPORTANT: Click the 'Help' button below for information on how to use this setup.

When clicking this help button you will se a text that explains how you can change the mode from 'external sinusoid' to 'internal sinusoid'.
You want it to be 'internal sinusoid', 'external sinusoid' will not work well for such low frequencies.

In principle it should not be any problem to plot continuous THD graphs in parallel with Frequency Response versus SPL graphs. Please let me know what you find out.

Here is another issue
>On the swept version, if I leave the default upper and lower >frequncy limits, the plot works fine. However, if I restrict >the range to 10Hz to 200Hz which is what I would like to do >for subwoofer testing, I get a blank plot or nonsensical >THD% values. Am I doing something wrong? I would really like >this to work as it will save me a lot of time.

I checked this and you are right, it does not work.
I also got this problem with 100,000+ that you are mentioning. This has to do with the time window start that is not set to zero. This you can monitor from the time window toolbar. We will try to fix this very soon.
But all this should work if you go to 'Measurement->Settings...' and in step 5 set the range from 1 Hz to 200 Hz it will work. Remember that if you want to display THD at 10 Hz, the sine sweep must start before 10 Hz. If it starts at 1 Hz, the 10th order harmonic is at 10 Hz so you can measure up to the 10th harmonic with this setting.

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Subject Low frequency sine sweep THD testing

Date Wed Nov 24 2004 13:16

Author Lars Morset (morset-at-winmls.com)

Here is another issue
>On the swept version, if I leave the default upper and lower >frequncy limits, the plot works fine. However, if I restrict >the range to 10Hz to 200Hz which is what I would like to do >for subwoofer testing, I get a blank plot or nonsensical >THD% values. Am I doing something wrong? I would really like >this to work as it will save me a lot of time.

I checked this and you are right, it does not work if you use exactly the settings you mention above.
The nonsense values has to do with the time window start that is not set to zero. This you can monitor and reset to zero from the time window toolbar. We will try to fix this bug very soon.

But all this should work if you go to 'Measurement->Settings...' and in step 5 set the range from 1 Hz to 200 Hz it will work. Remember that if you want to display THD at 10 Hz, the sine sweep must start before 10 Hz. If it starts at 1 Hz, the 10th order harmonic is at 10 Hz so you can measure up to the 10th harmonic with this setting.

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Subject WinMLS support for AC'97 soundcard

Date Tue Nov 30 2004 00:25

Author Joe (Alesizzz@aol.com)

Hello,

Can some one help? My ACER 1681 laptop has an AC'97 16 bit stereo soundcard. Is this card supported by winMLS 2000?

Thanks in advance,

JOE

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     Subject Sound card testing

Date Tue Nov 30 2004 11:29

Author Jens Jørgen Dammerud (support@winmls.com)

Generally about sound cards:

To test your sound card, go the help section 'Help->Help Topics' and follow in detail the first measurement walk-through. If your sound card will work will depend on the application. You can also follow the other sections of the walk-through chapter.

Please report the results of your tests.

Hope this helps.

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Subject time difference

Date Tue Dec 7 2004 15:29

Author fred (fred-bailly@wanadoo.fr)

how could I find the time difference betwen two picks in the time window?(like the "alt+x"fonction in MLSSA)

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     Subject Time difference

Date Thu Dec 16 2004 11:23

Author Lars Morset (morset-at-winmls.com)

This can be done by setting the time window upper and lower limit. The dx and dy values are displayed next to the time window upper limit (this can be set from 'Ctrl'+'w').

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Subject average plots

Date Tue Dec 7 2004 15:34

Author fred (fred-bailly@wanadoo.fr)

I would like to average plots,(I found how to do it)use this average as a reference,reverse it to set an equaliser.Is-it possible to do this with winmls and a peronal version?(this is the "Inverse-equalize "mode fonction in mlssa).

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     Subject Inverse-equalize

Date Thu Dec 16 2004 11:02

Author Lars Morset (morset-at-winmls.com)

File: WinMLS2004Help - How to set EQ based on measurements in multiple positions.doc

For this procedure you need a professional version.
See the attachment for a description on how to do this.

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Subject difference in time delays

Date Thu Dec 16 2004 15:07

Author Rhonda Wilson (rhonda.wilson@meridian.co.uk)

I am using WinMLS with a LynxOne sound card to do measurements that use the digital output and the analogue input. I am doing separate measurement of different channels of the device under test.
When I use the MLS signal the relative delays between the channels measures correctly. When I use the swept sine wave the delay on one channel is coming up far too long compared to the other channel. The difference corresponds to more memory than the DUT has. The measurements are very repeatable but the time delay seems very wrong.

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     Subject Time delay

Date Wed Dec 22 2004 11:58

Author Lars Morset (morset-at-winmls.com)

This relates to WinMLS 2004.
For me to be able to answer this, I need to see the setup you are using. Go to 'Setup->Export...' to export your settings. Then e-mail the resulting zip-file to "support-at-winmls.com". Also include the measurement file with the sine sweep measurement.

Best,
Lars

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Subject New forum - this forum is now retired

Date Mon Jan 10 2005 20:57

Author Lars Morset (morset-at-winmls.com)

This forum will no longer be monitored.

Find our new and improved forum at
http://www.winmls.com/board/

reply

Subject hardware question

Date Mon Dec 5 2005 16:21

Author zec (zec@club-internet.fr)

I use winmls2000 and smaartlive on the same laptop.
When I load winmls then shut it down to load smaart
I can't use my soundcard (which is a vx pocket)unless I reboot the computer.
Is there a way to force winmls to give the hand on the soundcard?

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Subject About the Digidesign digi 001

Date Thu Jan 10 2008 11:43

Author Kelvin (Kelvinc@hotmail.com)

May I know the digidesign can work for Winmls2004?

Thanks
Kelvin

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     Subject ozi

Date Mon Jul 13 2009 14:55

Author oz (oz@list.ru)

Personally I do not think they are that bad. Find the files you are looking for at my-dvdrip.com the most comprehensive source for free-to-try files downloads on the Web
my-dvdrip.com

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